Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

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Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  chicaboo on Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:55 am

Well, maybe not at stock timing, but when advanced to the max timing mark it is. When I run the motor slow for actual crawling, the ESC will cut off fairly quickly.
The thing is, the TZ with stock timing is slower than an Axial 27T motor, but has a LOT more torque. It'd be a nice upgrade motor with max timing on a decent ESC.

Gav.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  BIGBOY on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:44 am

I don't know if this is similar but I'm running the rz super stock 23t in mine it's quick and crawls pretty good.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  chicaboo on Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:39 pm

Yeah bigboy, the RZ and TZ Super Stock motors are brothers. The TZ has adjustable timing, but I'm not sure about the RZ. From memory there was only 1000rpm difference, while the RZ is the "racing" version [faster], and the TZ is the "torque" version. It's just annoying that the AE2 ESC is bugging out with my TZ.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  Rustykaos on Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:58 am

From memory the AE-2 is technically a rebranded castle sidewinder and can handle 3s batteries quite well. Using the stock or slightly higher turn motor with 3s will give better torque and wheelspeed. I'm not too sure if you have to set 3s using the castle link first but should work fine.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  chicaboo on Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:39 am

Official Axial docs say it's only 2S, but I've read mixed reviews of people using 2S and 3S - some die quickly, and some so go for ages.
Since my ESC is bugging out with a torquey 23T motor, I can't for the life of me see it coping with a 3S lipo. pale
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  BIGBOY on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:03 pm

I'll let you know what happens as soon as my f---n charger arrives been a month but I'm gunna use a external bec as suggested by wideload .
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  chicaboo on Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:11 am

In general a BEC is prolly a good idea, as I see the power drop off the motor when steering. I don't think this would help me though, since it's not like I'm pushing the boundaries on the motor. It's like the ESC can't cope with the amps the battery is putting out when running the motor slow under load.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  Rustykaos on Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:55 am

I've just installed a bec and it has fixed all my electrical issues and also put in a better servo.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  WIDELOAD on Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:58 am

The only mechanical difference between the TZ & RZ motors are the brushes. The TZ is stand up, the RZ is laydown.

I had to quote this cause it's interesting if not a bit wrong....
chicaboo wrote:It's like the ESC can't cope with the amps the battery is putting out when running the motor slow under load.

Crawlers draw SFA amps at low speed, and the batteries amps are a supply potential. So that would never work the way you've described it.
What is more likely to be the case is that you stall the motor out (physically stop it from turning). This caused a massive amp spike (a 55t has been logged at over 100amp spikes when stalled) which the battery cannot supply (amps are a potential in a battery remember) causing voltage sag and then the esc to either go into LVC or just shutting down totally. Very similar to when a servo overdraws the internal BEC of a esc and shuts the esc down due to voltage sag.


Running advanced timing really spikes up the amp draw, it's worse if you think you've advanced it and actually retarded it - remember you turn the endbell against the motor rotation to advance. Ideally you should never run anymore that 12° (one notch) of timing if you intend on using reverse, because reverse would cause the motor to run with retarded timing and chew up the comm/brushes.

To me it sounds like you've retarded the timing, cause a semi decent 23t (like the tamiya) should haul balls over a sh*tty 27t silver can, and that would potentially explain the shut downs with high amp draw causing issues.


The AE2 is not a rebranded sidewinder. It was built by castle, but it's far from a sidewinder. The only thing they share is the case, a couple of components on the board and the ability to use castle link.
Like the sidewinder, to get the best out of them you need an external BEC cause the internal one is only 2amps or something like that.


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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  chicaboo on Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:19 am

Hey Mr Load,

Fark, I don't care if I'm a bit wrong or interesting - I just expressed an assumption based on the symptoms I'm observing. Neutral
I looked up the specs on the TZ and RZ - the TZ = 26,500rpm and 500g/cm while the RZ = 27,500rpm and 500g/cm.
So essentially they are the same motors apart from the "T" and "R" marketing differences and the brush configuration.

My TZ is advanced to the outermost marker, which I think is 1.5 notches past stock? It is definitely advanced, as it runs slower in reverse.
It shouldn't be stalling out, as it was cutting off when trying to drive over a tree stump, or even just approaching it [not driving against a wall or anything demanding].
Looking at the notches for the timing marks, they are probably 5 to 6 degrees apart with 4 notches, so maybe 15-18 degrees in total marked adjustment?
As for the amps issue. Well, it bugs out when going slow under load [even just the Dingo's own weight], but I can drive it around like a nut tipping over with no worries.

I've always wondered if this motor is stuffed, as it makes a fair bit of green fire inside the endbell and runs VERY hot even at stock timing [but slower than the Axial 27T].
It's very torquey, however. But as it runs slower than the 27T at stock timing, I'm not going to persist with it. Maybe I will buy an RZ that's not a lemon and try that.
I might get a BEC at some point, but the TZ still cuts out without any steering input, so I don't see that resolving my issue.

Gav.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  WIDELOAD on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:33 pm

Fairy nuff.... I was making corrections to make sure that the right information was on here simple as that and to potentially point out what the problem could be.

Each notch on the endbell corresponds to 12° of timing, any other markings on the label etc. will be the manufactures guess work. The only markings you want to pay attention to are the 0° mark on the can (will be between the magnets) and the ones on the endbell. Total amount of timing marked is usually 24° or 36°.
If you're running 1.5 notches that's around 18°. Which depending on how good or bad condition the motor is in will lead to huge amp load and losing the low speed.

But now you've said it's throwing 'green fire' which it not right. A small amount of sparks on the edge of the brushes is normal and to a certain point acceptable. If the sparks are big hunking things or they're actually coming out the endbell, you've got a bigger problem.


Could also be a shorted wind on the arm as well, or a myriad of other things wrong.

Does the situation change if you put the original motor back in? If it does it's an indication that the motor at least needs a rebuild, at worst a new one.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  chicaboo on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:10 am

I looked at the timing marks again, and if I hold the motor with the first notch at the horizon, it does appear to be almost 40deg to the end marker. So yeah, around 18deg advance. tongue
The fire doesn't shoot out from the endbell, but you can sure as hell see that it's more than your typical sparking. Changing the timing doesn't make much difference in this regard.

This motor has always run insanely hot from new, even branding the Tamiya logo and vent slots from the end of the motor into the plastic chassis of my TL01B! [Not a gearing issue].
I changed back to the Axial 27T pretty much straight away, and now the ESC is as happy as it ever was.

I'm just bummed this motor never really worked out well for me. I have a Tamiya Sports Tuned black motor laying around I could try, but I don't expect much difference from the stock unit.
Since it's only a little over $30, I might give a new Tamiya RZ a go, and hope I don't get a dud. Do they come advanced half a notch like the TZ does?

Cheers, Gav.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  lunatick on Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:50 am

Move with the times, all the cool kids are useing Outrunners these days Very Happy

Paul now retreats behind a rock while he waits for Chunky Trunks to retalliate with a flame thrower
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  BIGBOY on Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:19 pm

No we're not it's brushed all the way !!!! Or are you saying you're cool Paul ?????
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  lunatick on Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:09 pm

BIGBOY wrote:No we're not it's brushed all the way !!!! Or are you saying you're cool Paul ?????

I,m cooler than a polar bear thats lost its fur coat Very Happy
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  azwa on Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:56 pm

lunatick wrote:
BIGBOY wrote:No we're not it's brushed all the way !!!! Or are you saying you're cool Paul ?????

I,m cooler than a polar bear thats lost its fur coat Very Happy

GOLD
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  WIDELOAD on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:40 am

Paul has his cool moments.... The rest of the time, no so sure.

But i do concede that Brushless has it's place. It's for the lazy and maintenance lacking.... Razz
I used to have outrunners in all my rigs, only got back into the brushed stuff the last couple of years after messing around with it back in the 90's and early 00's.

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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  chicaboo on Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:33 am

I'm not really interested in running sensored brushless systems when a good 23~32T brushed motor happily gets the job done.
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

Post  BIGBOY on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:02 am

I wouldn't know sensored brushless /out runner watchyacallit if it hit me in the head . I've only just come to terms with what the T means still trying to teach my mates that one .wait till I put the 3s batt in and everything burns to the ground and I have to fix it Troy will be pulling hair out with the dumbass questions. Thanks in advance !!
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Re: Tamiya TZ 23T with stock Axial AE2 = fail

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